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Saint John: One Employer Holds All Three

Saint John: One Employer Holds All Three

One company in Saint John may be paying for three separate things at once: the wage, the benefits attached to it, and whatever retirement promise sits behind each of them. Refining, shipbuilding, pulp and the port concentrate that arrangement across a whole town, and a boardroom vote taken far away closes all three on a single date. Protection granted through a job stops as the job stops, and the window for converting it is short. Treat what follows as background, not as individualised advice, since no sentence on this page is tailored to a reader and no outcome is promised. Dividends on a participating policy are declared annually at the discretion of the issuing insurer and carry no promise in advance. Advice and insurance products come to a household only through Canadian Wealth Creation Centre Inc. and its duly certified representatives, and not through the trade name IBC Financial. This practice states outright where its answer is no.

Your pay, your benefits and your pension may all be promises from one company. That is a single counterparty holding three things, and most financial material treats them as three.

This page is written for a household in heavy industry, refining, the port or the work that feeds them, and the life insurance question starts with the employer rather than the person. One corporate decision reaches the pay stub, the benefits booklet and the retirement statement on one date.

Every client relationship, every piece of advice and every insurance product comes through Canadian Wealth Creation Centre Inc. and its duly certified representatives. IBC Financial is the education platform and trade name. It holds no licence, distributes nothing, and gives no individualised advice.

Where the money goes when one employer pays for all of it

A Saint John household finances what every household finances, and pays somebody else for the privilege. A truck, a roof, a boat, a year at university.

What differs is where the repayments come from. One payroll, from one operation, in one industry, whose decisions are frequently taken in another city and sometimes another country.

The monthly payment is the only figure anybody is shown, by design, and the smallest question attached to a twenty five year commitment.

Our mission is to help Canadians be wealthy, starting with money already passing through the household rather than money nobody has earned.

The question a single employer household is never asked

If your employer made a decision next quarter that had nothing to do with you, how much of your household moves with it?

Nobody is engaged to ask it. A lender lends and is paid for lending. A payroll office administers plans it did not write. A union negotiates the agreement, not the budget behind it.

So it gets answered once, early, by whoever was selling that week, and the answer runs for twenty five years unrevisited.

Households that do ask it decide differently. Not because a cleverer product appeared, but because a good job and no capital under their own control is one position rather than two, which only becomes visible on the day the job ends.

Infinite Financial Sovereignty®, in plain words

a scheduled fee, and no title statute

What is different in Alberta

  1. 01Agents are licensed by the Alberta Insurance Council
  2. 02Probate is a fee on a schedule, not a tax on value
  3. 03There is no title protection statute of the Ontario kind
  4. 04The contract and its tax treatment are unchanged
The estate cost argument that carries weight in Ontario carries much less weight here.

Infinite Financial Sovereignty® is a registered trademark of Jose Salloum, this practice's name for one idea pursued over a lifetime: that a household should be its own source of capital rather than a borrower of somebody else's.

The underlying approach is the one Nelson Nash set out in his book and named The Infinite Banking Concept®, a registered trademark of Infinite Banking Concepts, LLC. Naming the author is not decoration. It says whose idea this is.

In practice it means holding capital where it keeps working while it is used. A participating whole life contract from a federally regulated insurer accumulates a contractual value, and when capital is needed an advance is taken against the contract rather than from a lender.

Repayment runs on a schedule the owner sets rather than one imposed as a condition of approval, and the contract keeps working while the advance is outstanding.

None of it is free or quick. The insurer charges interest on an advance. Costs fall heaviest early. Dividends are declared at the insurer's discretion and are never guaranteed. It rewards decades and punishes impatience.

What it looks like in a Saint John household

An operator with twenty two years on shift has never read his plan text, and believes his pension fixed because the statement prints a number every year.

A pipefitter's wife works for a contractor serving the same site. Two incomes, one order book, and both households on the street sit in the same position.

A couple in their fifties has group life, dependent life, disability and a drug plan, all from one employer, none of it theirs, all ending the date the employment does.

A supervisor took a package at fifty one and found the conversion window on his group life had a deadline he passed while handling everything else.

None of these people made a mistake. They took good jobs at serious employers, were told correctly that these were good jobs, and the conversation stopped there.

Three things that end in the same week

The pay stops first, and it is the only one anybody expects. A closure, a sale, a contracting out, a layoff or a medical retirement ends an income on a date somebody else chose.

The benefits stop with it. Group life, dependent life, health and dental and disability sit under a policy the employer owns, so they end with the employment rather than when the household stops needing them.

The retirement contribution stops as well. Whatever was credited each pay period stops, and the entitlement earned to date is governed by the plan text and provincial legislation rather than by what anybody assumed.

A household expecting these to fail one at a time is surprised. They do not arrive as three misfortunes over years. They arrive as one letter.

That is the argument of this page in one paragraph, and everything below it is detail.

Concentration risk, in a household rather than a portfolio

An investor is warned against holding one company. The reason is not that the company is bad, but that a single event moves the entire holding at once, because nothing in the position behaves differently.

A household can hold one company without ever buying a share of it. Earnings, group coverage, disability protection and a retirement promise from one employer is a concentrated position by any definition.

Nobody chose it as a strategy. In a city built around a few large operations it is frequently the only arrangement available, and taking the job was sensible at the time.

What can be changed is whether anything in the household is independent of it. Something owned rather than provided, continuing whatever the employer decides, needing no permission to exist.

That is a smaller claim than it sounds. It requires no leaving the job, no distrust of the pension, and no view at all about the industry's future.

The pension from a company that may not outlive you

probate as a fee, and a will that can be varied

What is different in British Columbia

  1. 01Agents are licensed by the provincial insurance council
  2. 02Probate is charged as a fee on the value of the estate
  3. 03A spouse or child may apply to vary a will
  4. 04Proceeds to a named beneficiary pass outside the estate
A designation matters more in a province where a will itself can be varied after death.

A workplace pension in this city is genuinely valuable and this page will not pretend otherwise.

It answers one question well. An income for a retired member, calculated by formula rather than investment results, which is a real advantage over a balance to be managed.

What it does not do is become a sum. It pays an income for a life and never turns into capital the household can direct at a roof, a business or a child.

And a promise runs only as far as the promisor and the rules behind it. New Brunswick pension legislation provides for more than one plan design, funding rules differ, and not every design fixes benefits as a household assumes.

This page states the mechanism rather than a figure, because the answer sits in your own plan text and in the legislation. Ask your administrator in writing what design the plan is, how it is funded, and what may be adjusted.

Coverage attached to employment ends with employment

A group life insurance certificate is not a policy you own. The employer owns the contract, the employee holds a certificate under it, and the employer's decision ends it without consulting anybody.

The amount is usually a multiple of salary, so it moves with the pay rather than with what the household needs, and was never sized against a mortgage or a family.

Most group contracts carry a conversion privilege, letting a departing member convert to an individual policy without new medical evidence, on a deadline commonly measured in days rather than months.

It is also the moment health may already have changed, which is why the privilege exists and why the deadline matters more than the amount.

Read the booklet this week and write the number of days on the front. It costs an evening, earns nobody a commission, and few readers could do anything more useful.

Who it suits here, and who it does not

It suits a household with durable surplus, meaning a normal year producing more than it spends, in money genuinely spare rather than merely unspent.

It does not suit a household without that surplus, nor anyone needing the money back within a few years, because an early exit is a permanent loss rather than a poor return.

It does not suit a household that has not sorted out income replacement. That comes first, and reversing the order would be selling rather than advising.

It does not suit somebody shopping on rate of return. Judged that way it compares poorly against a market portfolio, and the objections and the risks say so in our own words.

We will tell you which one you are in the first conversation, at no charge. Often the answer is no, and a no in half an hour beats a yes from somebody who wanted the sale.

What does not differ, whatever you have been told

the designation exists to avoid the estate

Why a contingent beneficiary matters

  1. 01What happens to the proceeds if the primary beneficiary cannot receive them?
  2. 02They receive the proceedsA contingent is named. The designation carries the proceeds past the estate.
  3. 03The proceeds generally fall into the estateNo contingent is named. An estate exposes them to delay and cost, and creditors of the estate may then reach them.
A designation is the cheapest estate instruction in Canadian insurance, and the one most often left incomplete.

The contract itself. A participating whole life policy from a federally regulated insurer works the same in Saint John as in Surrey. The guaranteed schedule, the advance provisions and the non-forfeiture options are never local.

The Income Tax Act is federal. The exempt test, the adjusted cost basis and the treatment of a death benefit received by a named beneficiary are the same across the country.

Assuris covers Canadian policyholders within published limits. It is not a government guarantee. A contract's guarantees are the obligations of the issuing insurer and depend on its financial strength.

So be sceptical of anybody offering a Saint John product. There is none, and the offer tells you what firm is making it.

What is genuinely local is the reader, who arrives with a benefits booklet, a pension statement and a shift schedule rather than a portfolio.

The New Brunswick rules are on the New Brunswick page, not this one

Saint John is in New Brunswick, and the provincial layer is answered in full elsewhere rather than repeated here in thinner form.

The regulator is the Financial and Consumer Services Commission, known as FCNB, and title protection, the public register, the complaints route and the estate charge are provincial, reading identically in Saint John and in Miramichi.

The New Brunswick page carries them, including how to check a licence in the public register for nothing, why this province's title transitions make the question sharper, and why the estate charge is described by its mechanism rather than a figure.

Read it once and come back. Nothing on it changes because a household lives on the west side rather than Rothesay.

Saint John specifically, rather than New Brunswick generally

The difference is the reader, not the law.

This is a city whose economy has long been organised around a few large operations. Refining, energy, pulp and paper, shipbuilding and repair, the port, and the contracting work that exists because of them.

That single fact reorders every question. In a diversified city the risks are largely independent. Here they are correlated, because one decision reaches the income, the coverage and the retirement promise together.

It also changes what a good answer sounds like. For many readers the right answer is to read the plan text, find the conversion clause and hold something small that is genuinely their own, which this industry is not paid to say.

A neighbouring city page with the name swapped would be worthless, which is why the page for a bilingual household with an affordable house and no capital behind it is Moncton, the page for physical capacity in the trades is Hamilton, and the full list says which page belongs to which household.

Not the Hamilton question and not the Edmonton one

Hamilton is about the body. The risk there is that physical capacity ends before the working life was meant to, and the question is what a household lives on then.

Edmonton is about a strong public sector pension, where the plan is durable, the promise well funded, and the gap is that an income for life never becomes a directable sum.

Saint John is about the counterparty. A household in perfect health, its capacity intact and its plan properly administered, can still lose its pay, its coverage and its retirement contributions together because of a decision it never saw.

Those are three genuinely different problems. A page treating them as one would be useless to all three households, which is why these pages are written separately.

Read the one that matches your position rather than the one nearest your postcode, because position decides the answer.

The order to do it in

the cycle a contract is used through

Funding, drawing and repaying

  1. Premium funds the contract on the agreed schedule
  2. Value accumulates under the terms of the contract
  3. The insurer advances against the cash value
  4. Interest accrues to the insurer while a balance stands
  5. Repayment restores the capacity that was used
The cycle in order: fund the contract, let value accumulate, take an advance, carry the interest, repay what was drawn.

Read the group benefits booklet, specifically the conversion clause. The number of days, the evidence required, who to contact. It takes an evening and almost nobody has done it.

Then ask your plan administrator in writing what design your pension is. How it is funded, what may be adjusted, and what happens to the entitlement if employment ends before retirement.

Then check who is named on every contract you hold, primary and contingent, including anything through work. The insurer pays whoever is named rather than whoever was intended, and asking costs a call.

Then look at where household capital is supposed to come from. Registered room first where it exists, funded from capital the household already controls rather than cash that never comes back. The retirement pages set out that order, and the policy basics pages explain how a contract accumulates value.

Three of those four cost nothing and earn nobody a commission, which is worth knowing about the order they are usually suggested in.

Questions worth asking in a Saint John meeting

If my employer announced a change next quarter, how much of this household moves with it?

What ends the day the job ends, and how many days do I have to convert the group life?

What design is my pension, how is it funded, what can be adjusted?

Do my spouse's income and mine depend on the same industry?

What does the guaranteed column show on its own, without the dividend column beside it?

Five questions, none of them technical, and the first four are about your own employment rather than any product.

The summary, if you read nothing else

Three promises from one company are one promise. Your pay, your benefits and your retirement contribution end on one date because they rested on one counterparty throughout.

The question is not which product to buy. It is who performs the financing function here, and whether that could be the household itself.

Two things sit on this file that are absent from a diversified one: the risks are correlated rather than independent, and everything protective the household holds belongs to somebody else.

Most of what matters can be established this week for nothing. Find the conversion clause, ask what design the pension is, check the designations, before anybody prepares anything.

Then find out whether this belongs in your situation. Half an hour, no cost, an honest answer either way.

What happens in the thirty minutes

We ask what the household is financing and on whose terms. Vehicles, the house, tools, an education, and where repayments come from.

We ask what depends on the employer. Not the size of the benefit, but how much of the household's position rests on one company deciding as it has.

We look at whether there is durable surplus. Not a year with a shutdown premium in it. A normal one, because a commitment sized against a strong year fails in a thin one.

We tell you plainly whether this belongs in your situation. Where the answer is to read the plan text and stop, the matter ends there and you have an answer nobody was paid to give you.

It costs nothing. Book a conversation, or read the cornerstone guide first if you would rather arrive knowing the subject.

A thirty-minute discovery meeting

A first conversation establishes whether this fits. No illustration is prepared and nothing is arranged.

Often the answer is no, and you will hear it during the call rather than in a proposal afterwards.

Hold a licence? To place business, deal directly with Canadian Wealth Creation Centre Inc. This page is for households.

By submitting this form, you consent to Canadian Wealth Creation Centre Inc. using the information you provide to respond to your request and arrange your meeting, including by text message to the number you give. See our Privacy Policy.

This form reaches Canadian Wealth Creation Centre Inc. Any meeting, any advice and any insurance product is provided by Canadian Wealth Creation Centre Inc., through its representatives certified by the Autorité des marchés financiers. IBC Financial is the company's education platform: it distributes no product and no financial service, and it gives no individualised advice.

Common questions

Why is a single employer town a different life insurance question?

Because the usual advice assumes the risks in a household are independent of each other, and here they are not. A household in a diversified city can lose a job while its coverage, its savings and its spouse's employer are all untouched. In Saint John the pay, the group life certificate, the health and dental coverage, the disability plan and often the pension come from one company in one industry. That is one counterparty rather than five, and everything attached to it moves together. Nothing about that makes a good employer a bad one. It simply means a single event carries further here than the same event carries somewhere else.

My pension is from my employer. What happens to it if the employer does not survive?

That depends on the plan's own text and on provincial pension legislation, and the honest answer is that it varies rather than that it is uniform. New Brunswick legislation provides for more than one plan design, and not every design fixes benefits in the way a household assumes when it reads a statement. Funding rules, the plan's funded position and what happens if a sponsor cannot meet an obligation are all matters of law and plan text rather than of reputation. This page states the mechanism rather than a figure. Ask your plan administrator in writing what design your plan is, how it is funded, and what may be adjusted.

What ends in the same week if the plant closes?

The pay stops, and so does everything the pay carried. Group life, dependent life, health and dental, disability, and any employer contribution toward retirement end on a date set by the plan documents rather than by fairness. Severance may soften the pay for a period and it does not usually continue the coverage. The pension entitlement earned to date does not disappear, though what happens next depends on the plan and on provincial legislation. The point is not that any of it is unusual. It is that a household expecting these to fail one at a time discovers they fail together.

Is group life insurance transferable when the job ends?

Not automatically, and this is where households lose most. Group life is usually a certificate under a policy the employer owns, so the employer's decision ends it and nobody consults the employee. Most group contracts carry a conversion privilege letting a departing member convert to an individual policy without new medical evidence, and that privilege has a deadline commonly measured in days rather than months. It is also the moment when health may already have changed. Read the booklet now, find the clause, and write the number of days on the front of it. Almost nobody does this before the letter arrives, and afterwards is too late.

Does a strong severance solve the problem?

It buys time and it does not buy independence, which are different things. Severance is a sum calculated on service and it arrives once, taxed, into a household that has just lost its income, its coverage and possibly its plan contributions on the same date. Households commonly use it to bridge a period they expected to be short, and where the local industry is contracting the period is not always short. What severance never does is restore what stood behind the income, because there was nothing standing behind it. Capital the household already controlled would have been there before the letter, which is the whole distinction this page is about.

What does concentration risk mean in a household rather than a portfolio?

It means several things that look separate are actually the same thing. An investor is warned against holding one company because a single event moves the entire holding at once, and the same logic applies to a household whose earnings, benefits and retirement promise come from one employer in one industry. The exposure is not a bad decision. It is often the only decision available in a town built around a small number of large operations. What can be done is to hold something that does not depend on that counterparty at all, so that not every part of the household's position moves on the same news.

My spouse works in the same industry. Does that matter?

It concentrates the position further, and it is common here rather than unusual. Where one partner works at a large operation and the other works for a contractor, a supplier or a service firm that depends on it, both incomes respond to the same order book and the same corporate decision. A turnaround, a shutdown or a project ending reaches both households in the same month. The useful exercise is to draw the two incomes on one page and ask what they genuinely have in common. Where the answer is one industry, the household should size its commitments against that fact rather than against two salaries.

Is this an argument against my pension?

No, and it should not be read as one. A workplace pension is a genuinely valuable thing, it answers the question of retirement income by formula rather than by investment results, and nothing on this page suggests giving one up. What a pension does not do is become a sum the household can direct at a problem, and it does not cover the interval between a job ending early and a pension becoming payable. Those are gaps rather than faults. The argument here is for holding something in the household's own name alongside the plan, not instead of it, and for reading the plan text rather than the story about it.

Are the New Brunswick rules different in Saint John?

Not in any respect, and a page suggesting otherwise is a template with a city name dropped into it. The regulator that licenses agents is the Financial and Consumer Services Commission, known as FCNB, and it reads identically in Saint John, in Rothesay and in Campbellton. Title protection, the public register, the complaints route and the charge calculated on the value of an estate are all provincial, and the New Brunswick page carries them properly rather than in a thinner form here. What is genuinely particular to Saint John is the reader rather than the rulebook, which is why this page spends its space on a single counterparty holding three things.

How is this different from the page written for Hamilton?

Hamilton is about the body. The risk there is that physical capacity ends before the working life was meant to, so the first question is what a household lives on when the trade can no longer be done. Saint John is about the counterparty. The risk here is that a household in perfect health loses its pay, its coverage and its retirement promise together because a decision was made in a boardroom somewhere else. The two pages ask different questions because they are written for different households, and a page that answered both in general terms would answer neither. Read the one that matches your position.

Can this practice work with a household in Saint John?

Yes, through the licensing that covers this province. Jose Salloum's personal licensing covers Quebec, Ontario and British Columbia only. Michael Salloum's personal licensing covers Quebec, Ontario, Alberta, Manitoba and New Brunswick, which includes New Brunswick, and Canadian Wealth Creation Centre Inc. holds a corporate insurance licence in New Brunswick as well. So a New Brunswick household is served by the firm through Michael Salloum rather than turned away. The licence that governs a household's file is the one for its own province of residence, and a first conversation confirms that before anything else is discussed at all.

Who am I actually dealing with, and who is paid?

Every client relationship, every piece of advice and every insurance product comes through Canadian Wealth Creation Centre Inc. and its duly certified representatives. IBC Financial is the education platform and trade name, it holds no licence, it distributes nothing and it gives no individualised advice. The representative is paid a commission by the insurer when a contract is placed, so the person explaining this is not a neutral party and this page should be read knowing that. The first conversation costs nothing and produces no illustration, which is the only part of the arrangement free of that tension. Ask the same question of anyone else you speak to.

Sources

  • Pension Benefits Act, S.N.B. 1987, c. P-5.1, verified 2026-09-03
  • Insurance Act, R.S.N.B. 1973, c. I-12, verified 2026-09-03
  • Financial and Consumer Services Commission (FCNB), verified 2026-09-03

About the author

Jose Salloum, Financial Security Advisor

Jose Salloum is a Financial Security Advisor (conseiller en sécurité financière) certified by the Autorité des marchés financiers in Quebec, a Life and Accident & Sickness Insurance Agent licensed by the Financial Services Regulatory Authority of Ontario, and a Life Insurance Agent licensed by the Insurance Council of British Columbia. Licensed since 2001.

He has practised The Infinite Banking Concept® since 2015 and founded Canadian Wealth Creation Centre Inc., which operates as IBC Financial, in 2016. He holds the Infinite Banking Concepts® Authorized Practitioner certification from the Nelson Nash Institute. That is a private certification rather than a regulatory licence.

IBC Financial is the education platform of Canadian Wealth Creation Centre Inc. This page is general education and not advice on any individual file.

Read the full biography and the licence numbers

Last reviewed 2026-09-03. By Jose Salloum, Financial Security Advisor.

Important disclosures

Important disclosure

Who you are dealing with. IBC Financial is the education platform and trade name of Canadian Wealth Creation Centre Inc. (cwcc.ca), the firm registered with the Autorité des marchés financiers. IBC Financial holds no licence, distributes no product or service, gives no individualised advice, and concludes no transaction. Every client relationship, every piece of advice and every insurance product comes only through Canadian Wealth Creation Centre Inc. and its duly certified representatives.

Licensing. Jose Salloum is a Financial Security Advisor (conseiller en sécurité financière) certified by the Autorité des marchés financiers in Quebec, a Life and Accident & Sickness Insurance Agent licensed by the Financial Services Regulatory Authority of Ontario, and a Life Insurance Agent licensed by the Insurance Council of British Columbia. Licensed since 2001. His personal licensing covers Quebec, Ontario and British Columbia only. He holds the Infinite Banking Concepts® Authorized Practitioner certification from the Nelson Nash Institute and the Certified Cash Flow Specialist designation. These are private certifications, not regulatory licences, and confer no government authority. All credentials may be verified in the regulators' public registers.

Protected titles. "Planificateur financier" is a protected title in Quebec, and "Financial Planner" and "Financial Advisor" are protected titles in Ontario. Jose Salloum does not hold or use these titles, and they are not used anywhere on this website.

Compensation and conflict of interest. As a licensed insurance professional, Jose Salloum receives commissions from insurers when a client purchases a policy. He is therefore not a neutral party. This website is the educational and marketing arm of Canadian Wealth Creation Centre Inc.

Nature of this website. This website is for general informational and educational purposes only. Nothing on it constitutes personalized financial, insurance, tax or legal advice, and reading it creates no professional-client relationship. Jose Salloum is a licensed insurance professional. He is not a Chartered Professional Accountant, he is not a lawyer, and he is not registered with the Canadian Investment Regulatory Organization. He does not provide securities, tax or legal advice. Consult your own accountant and legal counsel before acting on anything described here.

About the products discussed. Participating whole life insurance is an insurance product, not an investment. Its primary purpose is the death benefit. Dividends are not guaranteed. They are declared annually at the discretion of the insurer's board of directors based on the performance of the participating account, and past dividend performance does not indicate future results. Contractual guarantees depend on the continued solvency of the issuing insurer and are not backed by any government. Policyholder protection in Canada is provided by Assuris, within its published limits. The Canada Deposit Insurance Corporation covers bank deposits and does not apply to insurance products. These strategies are not suitable for everyone and depend on individual circumstances, cash flow, time horizon and objectives.

Not a bank. Canadian Wealth Creation Centre Inc. and IBC Financial are not banks, are not deposit-taking institutions, and do not carry on banking business. Premiums paid into a policy are not deposits. Policy values are not deposits, are not held on deposit, and are not insured by the Canada Deposit Insurance Corporation.

Tax note. Tax treatment depends on the policy remaining exempt under Regulation 306 of the Income Tax Regulations and on your own circumstances. A policy loan is a disposition under ITA s.148(9). Amounts above the adjusted cost basis may be taxable, and if the policy lapses or is surrendered while a loan is outstanding, the gain becomes taxable in that year. Consult a qualified tax professional before acting.

Trademarks and affiliation. "The Infinite Banking Concept®" and "Becoming Your Own Banker®" are marks of Infinite Banking Concepts, LLC. Neither Canadian Wealth Creation Centre Inc. nor Jose Salloum is affiliated with, sponsored by, or endorsed by Infinite Banking Concepts, LLC or the Nelson Nash Institute. "Infinite Financial Sovereignty®" is a registered trademark of Jose Salloum, Canadian Intellectual Property Office registration TMA1420283, registered 12 June 2026. "IFS™" is used as an unregistered abbreviation of that mark.

Provincial variation. Insurance licensing titles and requirements vary by province and territory. Verify your own advisor's licensing with the regulator in your province.

Privacy Policy. Person responsible for the protection of personal information: Mona Haddad, info@cwcc.ca, Canadian Wealth Creation Centre Inc., 203-3899 Autoroute des Laurentides, Laval, QC H7L 3H7, 514-875-9444.